An interviewer and two men sit at a small round table
INTERVIEWER
I'm speaking to Professor Douglas McCallum, Professor of Political Science at the University of New South Wales, and Mr Harold Levien, an economics teacher and author of the booklet Vietnam — Myth & Reality, which is now in its third printing. Professor McCallum, first of all, do you think demonstrations such as we saw in Sydney yesterday are in the public interest?
PROFESSOR DOUGLAS MCCALLUM
Well, I think clearly it's in the public interest that people should make their views known to government, and, in particular, if they're opposed to government policy. but in this case, I do dissent from the dissenters. I think the immediately desirable solution is obviously a ceasefire and reference of the issues to the negotiating table, and I think it could be argued that demonstrations like the one yesterday and those in America and those all over the world may help to prolong the war, so that irrespective of which side one takes — and I, of course, support the American presence and the Australian presence in Vietnam — irrespective of which side one takes, if one thinks that we ought to end this war, this kind of thing I think will convince Hanoi that they need not come to the negotiating table. And whether one wants the end of the war shortly or not, I think demonstrations like this may objectively help to prolong the war.
INTERVIEWER
Well, what about it, Mr Levien? Do you think that's argument enough against these demonstrations, that they encourage Hanoi to think that people are against the American and Australian positions?
HAROLD LEVIEN
I would take the point of view that the protests are designed to help shorten the war by encouraging America to negotiate with the National Liberation Front, and that negotiation with the National Liberation Front in South Vietnam is the only way in which the war could be stopped.
INTERVIEWER
But do you think these protests are the most useful means of having people make their feelings felt?
HAROLD LEVIEN
Well, I think it's one useful means. I think there are many means by which the individual should, or can, protest. I think the most useful is through the written word and through the spoken word, but I think marches and assemblies help to give people a feeling of solidarity which they need if they're to become active participants in the protest movement.
INTERVIEWER
Go ahead.
PROFESSOR DOUGLAS MCCALLUM
Well, solidarity with whom? This is the trouble, I think. I would agree that there are times when you think the thing is so urgent or so morally important that all you can do is do something like this, but I think the motives of the protesters are very mixed. There are people involved in these demonstrations for a great many different reasons. There's no question that many of them are pacifists, many of them are pacifists on this particular issue — they are not in general — but there are others, I think, who don't want to end the war except in one way. They want the Viet Cong to win. They want their side to win. And I think some of them are people who are not opposed to the cruel and dirty war, but to objectively wanting to help one side against the other. So when you say it helps people show their solidarity, solidarity with whom? It may not be with the people that you really agree, and for this reason, I think teach-ins, public debates, and, as you say, protests by the written or spoken word are far better than demonstrations like this. And another thing about the demonstrations is that they very greatly oversimplify and sensationalise issues. If you look at some of the placards, I'm sure you, Mr Levien, would agree that you don't really agree with the sentiments on all the placards expressed in these demonstrations.
INTERVIEWER
What do you think? Do you think the issues may be too emotional in these demonstrations?
HAROLD LEVIEN
Well, demonstrations are a fairly emotional way of protesting. I don't think you can isolate emotion from rational attitudes in this way. The point is that the protester wants to communicate to the public. He has limited means by which he can communicate — one means is by drawing attention to the fact that there are large numbers of people who disagree with Australian and American policy in Vietnam. There are many people who are marching in protests like yesterday's who have never protested in this way before. I'm one of them. I've never been moved to march through the streets until yesterday.
PROFESSOR DOUGLAS MCCALLUM
There are also, though, a great many veterans of protest, including some… I mean, I think the majority of people yesterday were sincere, but there were some who were pretty cynical who would be quite prepared to switch their line on other occasions, and there are also some very aggressive people. Many of these pacifists are very belligerent…
INTERVIEWER
But speaking of these people, some critics of these protests are quick to point out the Communist or pro-Communist elements in it. Did you feel that there is a question of guilt by association, that some of these protesters do associate themselves with pro-Communists?
PROFESSOR DOUGLAS MCCALLUM
I don't think that the non-Communist protesters ought to be worried about this. It's quite clear that there are Communists involved, and it's perhaps, as the Marxists themselves say, not without significance that this occurred all over the world in October in the 50th anniversary of the Russian Revolution. And I think there's no question of Communist infiltration into some, though not all, of the protest movements, but I don't think that people who are not communists ought to worry about this. I think they ought to… Of course, they're likely to be smeared by some people, but I think they ought to have the courage and the willingness to be smeared. If you believe something firmly, you ought to be willing to appear with a Communist or not. I do think that there are a lot of people who are innocent of this and unaware of it, and I think they ought not to be quite so innocent of the fact that they may be being used by Communists who have other purposes.
INTERVIEWER
I did want to ask Mr Levien — the demonstration yesterday featured a high percentage of what you'd call 'intellectuals' — writers, artists and academics. Do you think these people have any more claim to an authoritative statement on Vietnam than, let's say, the more typical citizen — the grocer, the baker, and the bank clerk?
HAROLD LEVIEN
I think so. I think the intellectual has a trained mind that enables him to comprehend the issues perhaps somewhat more clearly than the butcher, baker and candlestick-maker.
PROFESSOR DOUGLAS MCCALLUM
Well, I disagree here. You see, I think the intellectual's trained mind may help him to analyse facts and arguments, but if it's a moral question of right or wrong, why should the intellectual's view as to what is good or evil or right or wrong be any better than the ordinary citizen? I don't think that he has any peculiar authority here. He has the ability to analyse facts, to try and get as much information as he can, but there may be a straight moral issue about what you ought to do or ought not to do where I can't see that the intellectual has any peculiar moral authority.
INTERVIEWER
Gentlemen, we'll end it there, I'm afraid. Thank you, Professor McCallum and Mr Levien.